Anyone with an SBR or Auto have advice on how to obtain?

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Anyone with an SBR or Auto have advice on how to obtain?

Post by prophet03 on Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:38 pm

Hello everyone,
just signed up about 20 minutes ago. The gods have smiled upon me and granted me with funding for a vector. The CRB is just fine for my liking, but I've been thinking about an SBR or a fully auto SBR. I live in PA, so there's little restriction on what I can own. However, the NFA still requires special licensing to have one of these two weapons. I'm trying to find some advice from anyone with either of these. Is the better option to set up a gun trust (shorter wait time, no fingerprint submission, no photo ID submission, all trustees have access to weapons in trust) or just bite the bullet and give the gubberment my fingerprints and wait longer.

Or in counterpoint, is the full auto not worth the extra money?...upfront cost, ammo cost, accuracy cost.

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Re: Anyone with an SBR or Auto have advice on how to obtain?

Post by Crankeye on Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:33 pm

Wouldn't spend the money on the Kriss. Try something else, more reliable- less frustrating. I wouldn't gamble any money against this gun with the reliability issues associated with failure to feeds...towards the end of your mag. But...if you want a cool looking gun that you can show off ....your ok.

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Re: Anyone with an SBR or Auto have advice on how to obtain?

Post by Lifeisdeath on Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:45 am

ammo cost will be ridiculous with a 1200 rpm fire rate.

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Re: Anyone with an SBR or Auto have advice on how to obtain?

Post by hydepark308 on Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:49 am

Prophet, I would suggest doing a lot more research on NFA items. Just the fact that you're under the impression that suppressors and "full auto" items are the same as far as tax stamps etc. means you're most likely a ways off from obtaining either. I would suggest starting at BATFE's website. Lots of info there. You will never be able to posses a select fire Kriss. Period.
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Re: Anyone with an SBR or Auto have advice on how to obtain?

Post by Solscud007 on Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:44 am

You can get a select fire KRISS if you have a business, Type 3 FFL with law enforcemembt endorsement of a department who wants to demo one. Allstar Tactical in Rochester NY has one. But he also has a Type 7 SOT to manufacture as well.

I wouldn't bother with SBR. Just get the SDP, AR stock adapter and sig brace.

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Re: Anyone with an SBR or Auto have advice on how to obtain?

Post by MadDogDan on Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:21 pm

hydepark308 wrote:Prophet, I would suggest doing a lot more research on NFA items.  Just the fact that you're under the impression that suppressors and "full auto" items are the same as far as tax stamps etc. means you're most likely a ways off from obtaining either.  I would suggest starting at BATFE's website.  Lots of info there.  You will never be able to posses a select fire Kriss.  Period.

The tax to BATFE "is exactly the same, ($200)" for full auto and suppressors and short barreled rifles and short barreled shotguns and destructive devices.  I know because I have all of them.  As was said before you cannot get a select fire Kriss unless you are an 07/SOT or Class III dealer with a demo letter from a Department.

I would definitely go through the hoops to SBR a Kriss SDP.  That is what I did and do not regret the decision.  I have played with the SIG arm brace on AR pistols and AK pistols and it is a joke.  You cannot adjust the brace "enough" to "comfortably" shoulder the weapon and I like vert grips on all my SBR's and that would be a no-no without the tax stamp.  My suppressed SBR has been completely reliable from day one so don't let the haters persuade you.  By their standards there would hardly be "any" AR owners out there as there are a shit load of AR's that do not work reliably for one reason or another out of the box.

I went the LLC route years ago because I did not want to be at the mercy of any CLEO as to when he decided to sigh my paperwork and I didn't want to hassle with fingerprints or pictures.  My LLC does nothing but hold NFA items and I have no tax implications as I do not sell anything as a "business".  My LLC is also good for life and the initial cost was about the same as what most pay a Trust Lawyer.

JMHO,
MadDog




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Re: Anyone with an SBR or Auto have advice on how to obtain?

Post by prophet03 on Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:19 pm

@hydepark308,
A gun trust, or an LLC is a theoretical property that is capable of owning firearms (NFA, AOW, and non-NFA), Suppressors, and destructive devices (as per MadDogDan). However, as stated before, the tax stamp is the same for full auto, SBR, and suppressors. I was under the impression that AOW's were only 5 dollars. Never say never and do your research before you imply likewise. I would suggest you start with the BATFE's website. Lots of info there. Thanks for the help everyone.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html#legally-acquire-nfa
https://www.atf.gov/press/releases/1999/11/111099-openletter-nfa-law-letter-requirement.html

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Re: Anyone with an SBR or Auto have advice on how to obtain?

Post by MadDogDan on Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:08 pm

prophet03 wrote:@hydepark308,
    A gun trust, or an LLC is a theoretical property that is capable of owning firearms (NFA, AOW, and non-NFA), Suppressors, and destructive devices (as per MadDogDan).  However, as stated before, the tax stamp is the same for full auto, SBR, and suppressors.  I was under the impression that AOW's were only 5 dollars.  Never say never and do your research before you imply likewise.  I would suggest you start with the BATFE's website.  Lots of info there.  Thanks for the help everyone.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-firearms.html#legally-acquire-nfa
https://www.atf.gov/press/releases/1999/11/111099-openletter-nfa-law-letter-requirement.html

AOW's are "only" a $5 tax stamp if it has already been made and is "transferring" to you. If "you make" the AOW then it is a $200 tax. If you "make" a Kriss SDP pistol into an AOW the "only" thing you can add is a vertical grip, no stock.

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Re: Anyone with an SBR or Auto have advice on how to obtain?

Post by prophet03 on Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:22 pm

Lol "thanks." Would you then also have to pay another 200 tax to add a stock because it would then be an SBR? Or if I just opted for an SBR, can I just put a grip onto it like a standard rifle?

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Re: Anyone with an SBR or Auto have advice on how to obtain?

Post by MadDogDan on Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:53 pm

prophet03 wrote:Lol "thanks." Would you then also have to pay another 200 tax to add a stock because it would then be an SBR? Or if I just opted for an SBR, can I just put a grip onto it like a standard rifle?

You are correct. If you pay $200 to turn it into an AOW then you could "only" add the front vert grip and if you later wanted to add a shoulder stock then you would have to SBR it costing you an additional $200. That is why I say SBR it from the beginning and be done with it. As an SBR you can set it up any way you wish. With our without a stock and with our without a front vert grip. The only advantage I can see of going the AOW route is if you "never" want to add a stock and only if you have an 07/SOT as a close friend. You can transfer it to the 0/7SOT free of charge on I believe it is a Form3, he would add the front vert grip and then "transfer" it back to you for $5 on a Form4. However most 07/SOT's do not do anything for free and will charge something for their services.

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Re: Anyone with an SBR or Auto have advice on how to obtain?

Post by prophet03 on Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:24 pm

Also, when I last talked to a lawyer specializing in gun trusts, it sounded as though I can possess the same kind of weapons you say you have. I understood it to be legitimized just like a company/business. How different is the trust from your LLC?

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Re: Anyone with an SBR or Auto have advice on how to obtain?

Post by hydepark308 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:24 pm

I think a lot of you are confusing (or reading into) what I posted above. I've been busy with work and for some reason I cannot post replies with my iphone. So, let's look at what I actually wrote.

"Prophet, I would suggest doing a lot more research on NFA items. Just the fact that you're under the impression that suppressors and "full auto" items are the same as far as tax stamps etc. means you're most likely a ways off from obtaining either. I would suggest starting at BATFE's website. Lots of info there. You will never be able to posses a select fire Kriss. Period."

Okay, so basically all I am saying is that Prophet needs to do the footwork to find out his local / state laws, the BATFE Form 1 / 4 process, and whether or not his local CLEO will even sign off on them (if he's not doing a trust). I take this process very seriously and suggest others do the same. Best case scenario if you run afoul of the process is it takes two years instead of one because you screw up the paperwork. Worst case scenario is you go to prison and your entire life is ruined, possibly forever. Do not be confused here. I believe the process was designed to be a discouraging one. It hasn't stopped me nor should it stop anyone else from fully exorcizing his or her Constitutional rights.

Second point; the tax stamp process for TRANSFERABLE select fire stuff is the same (Form 4) for SBR / SBS / AOW / Suppressors (and having an extra $15,000 to $30,000 laying around is pretty much a prerequisite). Since the first Kriss wasn't even designed let alone manufactured until 2008 / 2009, there are no TRANSFERABLE examples in existence. Nor will there ever be under the current laws.

Also, I was always of the understanding that the SOT (meaning the business itself) owns these Post May 1986 items. I was recently at Machine Gun Tours in Lakewood, CO talking to the awesome guys over there and in short, that was their answer. The business owner does not own Post May stuff, the business does. In other words, what I said before was exactly correct. Prophet will never personally own a select fire Kriss.

To Solscud and MadDogDan, in no way am I / was I discouraging Prophet from going out there and starting up a Special Occupational Taxpayers' business. That being said, it was plainly obvious just by the language used in his original question that he has very limited (if any) understanding of this side of the firearms world.
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Re: Anyone with an SBR or Auto have advice on how to obtain?

Post by MadDogDan on Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:17 pm

prophet03 wrote:Also, when I last talked to a lawyer specializing in gun trusts, it sounded as though I can possess the same kind of weapons you say you have.  I understood it to be legitimized just like a company/business.  How different is the trust from your LLC?

prophedtg03

For all practical purposed a Trust acts exactly like an LLC in this case, the only difference being the LLC "must" stay "current" to hold NFA items. Since the cost of an LLC in my state is a one time charge and it is good for life (no annual fees) it is a wash for me. I first went the LLC route 15 years ago because my local CLEO would not sign NFA paperwork. If I had known about Trusts back then I would have gone that route and not the LLC.

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KRISS-USA NFA Experience

Post by techgeek on Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:01 am

I started my journey by setting up an NFA Trust ($450) during this time I took my KRISS CBR to the range and fired 100 rounds, with no issue's at all. I also contacted KRISS-USA about performing the SBR conversion on my gun. The cost for them to file the Form 2 and swap the barrel is $550. A local dealer sent my KRISS back to KRISS-USA on Aug.15, 2014. This is where the problem begins! In early October I contacted KRISS-USA to see where the process was currently. A week later I received and email stating they were sending out the Form 2, 6 weeks after receiving my gun! I got the feeling that if I hadn't contacted KRISS when I did the Form 2 never would have been filed! Then in mid December I received a call from the shop that sent my KRISS out, saying they had received the Form 2 KRISS-USA filed back to supply additional information?! Why it wasn't sent to KRISS-USA I have no idea. So here I am 4 1/2 months into the process and still not having filed the Form 4, which takes 9 months! During this time I ordered a Ti-Rant 45 suppressor that was shipped to a dealer in my state, waiting for Form 4/Tax Stamp issuance. It took 3 weeks for the Silencer Shop to receive approval to ship the suppressor and file my Form 4 to get a Tax Stamp. At this rate I should have the suppressor a YEAR before I get my KRISS SBR back. I sent KRISS-USA another email tonight to see if they have heard anything back about their Form 2.

In retrospect I should have obtained the Form 2/Form 4 approval myself, cut down the barrel then sent it to KRISS-USA for barrel replacement. Also buying the KRISS pistol and going through the NFA process would be a viable option, although I have never seen the KRISS pistol in my area.

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KRISS SBR Conversion

Post by techgeek on Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:46 pm

KRISS-USA responded to my email saying they had received Form 2 approval and were scheduled to replace my barrel this week. So I contacted the dealer I used to ship my KRISS and asked if we could start my Form 4 now. They tried to contact KRISS to get a copy of the Form 2 to make sure all details would match between the two forms. KRISS-USA has NOT responded to the request for the Form 2 as of this time. My dealer said that KRISS-USA has been the worst dealer experience they have had to date! No idea how long KRISS has had my Form 2 back. We all know the government is stalling to approve NFA forms and it is very disconcerting that a gun company like KRISS is being complicit delaying the NFA system. If everything was completed in a timely manner what has taken 4 1/2 months should have only taken 4 weeks!


Last edited by techgeek on Thu Jun 18, 2015 12:46 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Anyone with an SBR or Auto have advice on how to obtain?

Post by Ezveedub on Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:26 am

I wouldn't use Kriss USA for any NFA conversions. They told me that same Form 2 thru SOT/Form 4 crap last year when I wanted my SDP converted to SBR. I told them hell no. Did my Form 1, engraved it and threw the stock on. I recently contacted Kriss about any updated parts, to which they stated there really hasn't been any updates. yet I purchased some parts and the hammer is now different from my original hammer. IMO, take any info from Kriss with a grain a salt......

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KRISS SBR Conversion

Post by techgeek on Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:00 am

I received news today that my KRISS is finally back in Michigan, 5 months and 3 days after I sent it to KRISS-USA for SBR conversion. Most of this delay was due to KRISS since the best I can ascertain, it took the BATFE 4 weeks to give Form 2 approval. Since my dealer received the gun back during SHOT Show week, it will be another week before they get back and can Fax my Form 4 to the BATFE.
One of the reasons I didn't do the conversion myself was after doing some research I couldn't find anyone to engrave the gun. Plus it would still need to be sent to KRISS in order to press a threaded SB in place.

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Re: Anyone with an SBR or Auto have advice on how to obtain?

Post by Ezveedub on Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:38 am

techgeek wrote:I received news today that my KRISS is finally back in Michigan, 5 months and 3 days after I sent it to KRISS-USA for SBR conversion. Most of this delay was due to KRISS since the best I can ascertain, it took the BATFE 4 weeks to give Form 2 approval. Since my dealer received the gun back during SHOT Show week, it will be another week before they get back and can Fax my Form 4 to the BATFE.
One of the reasons I didn't do the conversion myself was after doing some research I couldn't find anyone to engrave the gun. Plus it would still need to be sent to KRISS in order to press a threaded SB in place.

You had a CRB converted to SBR I assume. That's the most expensive route to go for SBR conversion, as barrel replacement is way harder than adding a stock. Engraving is a tad more work, as you have to strip the poly cover off and engrave the receiver and cut an opening out for the engraving to show.

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Re: Anyone with an SBR or Auto have advice on how to obtain?

Post by techgeek on Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:51 pm

Yes I did have a CBR converted to an SBR. Have never seen a KRISS SDP here in Michigan. in fact the only KRISS I have ever seen here was the CBR I bought. It is indeed the most expensive route to go converting the CBR to an SBR. Including my Trust setup the total will be $1260. While I am not happy about the cost, it is the time involved to complete the process that irritates me the most. The way things are going it could conceivably take 1 1/2 years for me to get my KRISS back.

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Re: Anyone with an SBR or Auto have advice on how to obtain?

Post by techgeek on Thu May 28, 2015 9:19 am

My saga continues! I called The Silencer Shop two weeks ago to check tax stamp status, after 8 months of waiting. They indicated that they were receiving approvals from forms sent in back in February. Since mine was sent last September I was a little curious as to what was going on. The Silencer Shop finally told me that once they send in the Form 4 they are essentially out of the loop, since they wouldn't be receiving the tax stamp. I contacted the shop my suppressors were transferred to here in Michigan and when he called the BATF apparently my Tax Stamps were approved back in February. When or if they sent the paperwork out is a mystery never to be solved! They bottom line is that  there is a huge gap in this system. The wait time for Tax Stamp approval right now appears to be 5 months. So if you are around that time in your approval process it would definitely be to your benefit to have someone call the BATF to check on you approval. This sitting back and waiting patiently for the government to do their job is a joke!

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Re: Anyone with an SBR or Auto have advice on how to obtain?

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