Accuracy Issues

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Accuracy Issues

Post by actionlou on Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:24 pm

Thanks for the welcome,

What kind of accuracy are you guys getting at 50yds with and without optics- Rested and Offhand.
I am using a Millet 1-4x24 dms scope and the factory iron sights. With the millet from a rest my groups have a 10" extreme spread some centered but a lot of the shots are all over on a 10" Shoot -n-c. I would almost be happy if this was done from an offhand position. Im to embarrassed to share my iron sight groups at 50 yds. Please let me know what kind of groups you guys are getting at 50yds.

Thanks Much,
actionlou

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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by Solscud007 on Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:49 pm

Sorry I haven't shot groups in two years. I'm just actively shooting within 25 yds.

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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by solvovir on Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:47 pm

see my post, #3 here

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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by solvovir on Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:49 pm

i was using my vortex pst 1-4. think ill probably go red dot instead. but you can see out of 7 shots, it kinda made 3 (2 shot) groups, even though they were all in pretty quick succession

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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by actionlou on Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:34 pm

Not to bad for 100yds. But at 50yds with a 4x scope one would expect 1-2 groups with any quality carbine. I have seen some post and pics of some folks getting 2" groups at 50yds with a red dot.

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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by mambro on Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:10 am

I'm in the same camp as Solscud007: using a CRB inside 25 yards with an EOTech... and generally with WWB/Federal Champion/Blazer Brass (the Walmart practice-grade variety).

Maybe part of the spread in your testing is related to the ammo you used? For example, I noticed the FAQ at Wilson Combat (whose pistol products come with accuracy guarantees) stipulate what ammo is used... along with a Ransom rest: http://www.wilsoncombat.com/faq_handgun.htm

Maybe our friends at PNW Arms can comment on the expectations (ballistics) of the .45 ACP round for this carbine... especially out to 50 & 100 yards?

It would also be interesting to have KRISS USA comment on their own accuracy expectations of the SBR and the CRB... and under what conditions. In solvovir's post he mentions 150 meters as a max range for the CRB. I have to wonder if that's "hitting" a (man sized?) target at approximately 164 yards or "grouping" with any consistency. Heck, even 100 yards seems like a long way out for .45 ACP to me.

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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by actionlou on Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:42 am

I agree with you on trying different ammo. The 10" group I shot was with Remington umc 230gr jhp. That was the best group. The other ammo i used was Federal American Eagle, Federal Champion, Remington umc, Blazer Brass and WWB. I read a 2008 article in Swat magazine about the Carbine and the groups were 1" at 35yds and the testing was done by Kriss. They did not say what ammo they were using. I know that guns can be ammo sensitive as far as accuracy . The problem with my groups is the spread, there was just no consistancy. Iron sight testing at 50yds was much worse using the above ammo. I had other shooters try the gun and they shot no better. The funny thing is that the main issue with the gun has been reliability problems and accuracy was great. but my problem is just the reverse. I am pleased with carbine overall. I have sent the gun back to Kriss for them to test it. Phil in customer service has been great to deal with. I will let you guys know what they say.

Thanks


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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by solvovir on Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:54 pm

I would try lighter ammo, maybe 165gr or even 180 gr?

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Accuracy Issues

Post by actionlou on Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:43 pm

Thougt about using a lighter bullet weight but that defeats the purpose of a 45 acp carbine. It should group all bullet weights just different point of impact. I also thought a slower bullet takes longer to exit the barrel , so any movement in the barrel may throw the bullet off. What do you think ?

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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by Solscud007 on Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:32 pm

Mambro, I am one of the few and maybe the only one to engage steel at 200 yds. According to the Range Officers, they could see the round in the air and see it hit the steel and bounce off.

I will be replicating this event next weekend at my club's high power match.

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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by saki302 on Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:03 pm

Check your rifle for loose accessories or a loose barrel shroud.

Anything rattling around can cause random variations in shot groups.
-
I've heard of guys having similar problems with other platforms finding out their optics were loose Very Happy

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Accuracy Issues

Post by actionlou on Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:17 pm

I wish it was that simple. Optics were tight and so was the barrel shroud. I also shot with the barrel shroud off so i could take that out of the equation and my grouping was no better. I shot the same optic on one of my ARs this weekend and the optic was dead on, 1/2" groups at 50yds and 2" groups at a 100 yds. I was using a grip pod which is not that stable as compared to sand bags which is what i used for the Kriss. I wish i knew what the answer was. That is why i sent it back to the factory. I will let you guys know what they say.

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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by Solscud007 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:29 am

Louis, shooting with the shroud off is not recommended. The barrel whips about weird.

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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by actionlou on Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:10 pm

Hey Solscud,

Where did you get that info on the barrel shroud, Phil at Kriss told me it made no difference with shround on or off. Please let me know.

Thanks Much,

Lou

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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by Solscud007 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:14 pm

There could be some issues with my KRISS that you guys are not experiencing. My KRISS is 1771. It has a 15mm barrel the entire length.

When I took a tactical carbine course, with the KRISS, the instructor mentioned weight as an issue. 8 hours of holding the KRISS at the low-ready position get tiring. even at a mere 5 lbs and change. I removed my flashlight and anything i didnt need. I figured for the second day I would remove the shroud. It felt lighter. We immediately checked our 50 yd zero. My shots were completely off paper. Everytime, 10 shots just to try and acquire where it was shooting. We did this lke 2-3 times.

Solution, put the shroud back on. Luckily I brought it with me. Screwed it back on and sure enough, my shots were back on paper.

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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by actionlou on Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:24 pm

Hello again Solscud,

I know about the point of impact change with the shroud off. I was off paper too. Did someone at kriss tell you not to shoot with the shroud off.

Lou

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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by PNWArms on Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:14 pm

I've reached out to engineering asking for official accuracy numbers. Hopefully I will get an answer later today or tomorrow.

Thanks,

-PNW Arms Sales Team

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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by Solscud007 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:16 pm

actionlou wrote:Hello again Solscud,

I know about the point of impact change with the shroud off. I was off paper too. Did someone at kriss tell you not to shoot with the shroud off.

Lou

Lou, to be honest, when I was shooting at the carbine class there wasn't anyone else who engaged 200 yds or shot with shroud off. I called KRISS and thy said they have never tried shooting with the shroud off. I don't know if they were blowing me off or beng honest. I had difficulties getting info out of them.


PNW, I would be interested to hear your results.

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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by actionlou on Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:55 pm

Thanks Solscud and PNW.

Lou

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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by dhshammer on Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:15 pm

Hello All.

I discovered an issue that may affect accuracy. There is play between the upper and lower receiver. If you twist the upper (rear) and lower (forward) grip in opposite directions, you will notice that a gap of about 1.5 millimeters appears between the receivers. Since the sights are on the upper, and the barrel is on the lower, an aimpoint error is induced.

My rough calculations shows a potential error of +- 3 inches at 25 yards.

In my opinion, there should be NO movement or play between the upper and lower. Especially since the barrel is on the lower and the sights are on the upper.

I've been getting lousy groups at 25 yards from a bench rest, and I am not happy.

David

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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by CatMostFeared on Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:45 pm

welcome1 aboard dhshammer
I haven't got to check my accuracy yet but with all the members on here I'm sure we will come up with a solution.
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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by Solscud007 on Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:18 pm

I shot the Kriss at 200 yds I was dancing around the steel plate. I eventually gave up and tested out my new AR build. I really need to set some time and zero it in.

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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by CatMostFeared on Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:17 pm

checkout this write up

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/kriss-vector-review-crbso-and-sbrso-45acp-carbines/

Accuracy is not as good as my other Swiss gun, the WWII era Schmidt Rubin K-31, but compared to other pistol caliber carbines it is pretty good. Our test gun came in zeroed to point of aim at 25 yards, which is point blank range for the cartridge. I was easily able to keep 5 rounds within 2 inches at this distance. Other .45 caliber carbines, from the “Grease Gun” to the Thompson to the MAC-10 are considered “spray and pray” guns. With the recoil and muzzle climb advantages of the KRISS and the actual physical accuracy of the gun, even rapid fire or possibly even full auto aimed fire is realistic.
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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by dhshammer on Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:23 pm

Thanks for the help guys.

I took my 2 SBR Krisses to my gun store for SBR engraving. I showed them the play and gap between the upper and lower receivers on both guns. As Kriss shooters themselves, they were a little shocked.

From a bench rest, I expected that a $1,700 gun would produce a superior group at 25 yards. 1 or 2 inches at the most. From a bench rest I was getting a wide spread within about a 7 inch circle at 25 yards.

I can shoot a tighter pattern at 25 yards free hand with my Glock 21.

Also, I discovered that the Magazine release is inadvertently pressed by my thumb while firing resulting in the Mag being inadvertently ejected. The fix is to use a forward pistol grip.

There is a problem with the first round failing to feed all the way into the chamber requiring a nudge with the charging handle. And the Kriss is very picky on ammo......

Wow.... I’m really thinking that I want to sell my 2 Krisses. The guys at my gun shop are going to try to work with me to address and fix these issues, but I never dreamed that there would be all these problems.

I’ll attach pictures illustrating the gap and play between the upper and lower when I get them back.

Dave

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Re: Accuracy Issues

Post by actionlou on Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:57 pm

Hey Dave,

Welcome to the forum,

I agree with you 100% . I have the same problems. My gun is at Kriss right now. I will let you and the rest of the folks know as soon as Kriss lets me know.

Lou


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