PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

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PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by PNWArms on Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:39 am

Here is a test performed with a 16" and 6.5" KRISS rifle. Please note, these numbers are for informational purposes only and are not definitive on the accuracy or capabilities of this weapon or platform. (/End Disclaimer)















Thanks,

-PNW Arms Sales Team

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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by mambro on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:35 am

Thank you VERY much for running these tests and posting the results! cheers
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PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by actionlou on Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:21 am

Hey PNW,

Great info.

Did you use iron sights and was that fron a rested position.

Thanks Much

Lou

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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by Solscud007 on Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:05 pm

Yes, thank you PNW. Fantastic!!

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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by PNWArms on Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:07 pm

It was shot from a bench top using a 12-52x IOR Valdada.

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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by actionlou on Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:28 pm

Thanks for the Info PNW.

My next comments do not reflect on PNW but rather the Kriss Carbine. 25yds and 50yds are ok groups and I mean just ok.
The grouping at a 100yds if you call that a group. ( I call it a joke ) . What kind of 100yd group would you get shooting off hand . ( 4ft )
Like I said this does not reflect bad on PNW, they did a great job. It was the gun that did not perform. From reading several of the previous posts anyone shooting past 25yds is not having good results. Let me know what you guys think.

Thanks





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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by dhshammer on Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:39 am

Yes, thank you PNW for the results for your test.

Keep in mind, Kriss is selling this weapon system for close quarter battle. (25 yards or less) Watch the video on their web site http://www.kriss-arms.com/. Go to 2:20 into the video. This is not a 50 or 100 yard platform and they know it.

Also, you will notice that every weapon has the forward pistol grip. My guess is that they were having inadvertent magazine ejections without the forward grip like I did. I can live with this workaround of using the pistol grip.

I bought 2 of them with close quarter engagements in mind. I discovered the gap and play between the upper and lower. The upper has the sight, and the lower has the barrel. This will cause significant errors in accuracy at long range. It doesn't matter if you are using an $800.00 optic on the top rail. If there is ANY movement or play between it and the barrel, you will not be driving nails at any range.

Again, I am working with my local dealer to resolve this issue. When I get back to town, I will post pictures of this gap and play I mentioned.


Dave

P.S. Another thing to consider with this weapon system. Since it is a close quarter weapon, I am considering installing low profile iron sights of the top rail. This will reduce (not eliminate) the difference between the point of aim and the point of bullet impact at close range.

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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by Solscud007 on Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:48 am

Dave,

have a look at my magpul MBUS prototypes.
http://www.krisstalk.com/t6-kriss-buis-magpul-and-mwi-origins

They are too low though for shooting from the shoulder in the pistol configuration.

I am curious to see your "play" in your receivers. If you could, shoot a short video with your iphone or camera and put it up on you tube. I have tried to contort my KRISS like you said but it doesnt do that.

In all honesty I think the vertical grip is a hold over of what people conceive as "tactical'.

I like to use my "Hammer" analogy. If you hold a hammer vertically by the bottom of the grip, then have someone grab the head. It will be very difficult to stop any movement your friend makes if he moves the hammer head. If you choke up closer to the head, the movements are easier to control.

This is one reason why a high tang grip is now the current method of choice for shooters.

I even experimented with grabbing the shroud when i shoot my carbine. just like the hammer analogy, the principle works for the barrel as well. By grabbing the shroud as far out as possible, it minimizes the movements at the end of the barrel. grabbing the Magwell, makes it difficult to control the movements at the end of my long barrel. My method makes my shots more steady with fast follow up shots.

I dont disagree with you that the KRISS is a CQB weapon. But in the end it is a firearm and it is interesting to see what it can do at longer distances. It is like people who race in a Honda Civic. They are not sports cars at all. But does that matter? the owner enjoys running the car thru its paces and seeing what the car can do. I like to do that with my KRISS.

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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by dhshammer on Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:32 am

Solscud007

Outstanding low profile sights! These will greatly improve close quarter holdover accuracy! But, where did you get that stock? It has a great drop at comb!

Sorry if I have offended the long range shooters in here. I was merely answering actionlou. I think that he expected much better performance from an expensive weapon.

I will defiantly show pictures and video of this issue of the "gap and play". I am having a hard time believing that my 2 Krisses are the only ones with this issue. I have an equally hard time beveling that I am the only one in here having inadvertent magazine ejections while shooting holding the lower with my left hand.

Anyway, I intend to post the pictures/video along with measurements and calculations showing the potential errors when I get back home next week.

Dave

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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by Solscud007 on Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:48 pm

Dave,

Check out what Lou made. It is a cleaner version of my original AFG mod.
http://www.krisstalk.com/t142-kriss-afg2-mod-detailed-pics

I feel that this is a better hand position and will help keep your hand away from the mag release.


I sent you a PM on facebook.


The picture of the protoype KRISS is not mine. That is the original concept stock.

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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by Mushinto on Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:57 pm

Thank you PNW for your work.

The lack of accuracy from the KRISS at 100 yards is significant. There is no reason for a .45 carbine to be less accurate than a 9mm carbine. In fact, it should be more. I have seen much better groups from an MP5 and my Colt 9mm AR. This is simply unacceptable.

The only purpose of a pistol caliber carbine is to extend the range which a pistol cartridge and be used effectively.

However, I am confident that the factory can do something about it.

Keep us in the loop, actionlou.

ML

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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by dhshammer on Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:23 am

Look what mambro found.........

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=554040

This shim might actually do the trick! I'll contact CRTguns and find out who makes this shim kit.


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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by Mushinto on Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:26 am

With the accuracy that PNW demonstrates, this carbine may have some salient features.

It's a rifle at 25 yards, and a shotgun at 100.

Just kidding.

Still waiting for action Lou's factory report. Perhaps the factory is trying to buy a "shim kit" on the Internet.

ML

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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by dhshammer on Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:12 pm

A question for PNW.
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My Krisses are SBR'ed pistols. Mine have 5.5 inch barrels.
Your data was from a 6.5 inch barrel.

Did you do any testing on 5.5 inch barrels?
Was your ammo designed for the longer barrel?
Are you planning on developing hollow point ammo?

Thanks in advance
Dave

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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by dhshammer on Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:21 am

Anyone?
Bueller ?

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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by Shipwreck on Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:08 pm

I think the results are terrible. While it may be a CQC weapon - it's still a carbine. 50 yards is a reasonable distance. Hell, a nice 1911 can shoot better groups at 50 yards than that.

I could live with 3 inches or a little more at 100 yards. But that accuracy at 50 yards. That's really bad. ON a bench with an optic - it almost makes me think something is wrong with that gun. Wow.
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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by Solscud007 on Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:38 pm

I think people here should use these numbers as a starting point. More importantly is to try and replicate or beat these numbers with your own shooting.

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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by PNWArms on Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:49 am


Dave:

Did you do any testing on 5.5 inch barrels?
No, we only tested from our 6.5" SBR. We do not have any of the pistols or older SBRs with the 5.5" barrels at this time.

Was your ammo designed for the longer barrel?
Our ammo was designed to function from 5.5" to 16" with the KRISS Action.

Are you planning on developing hollow point ammo?
Great question, there are some things on the engineering slate that have KRISS in their name but that's all I can really say.

Shipwreck:

Remember, this was only to get some information out on the forums and as stated previously does not reflect on the capabilities or accuracy of this platform. We encourage you to do your own testing and would love to see other's groups.

Thanks,

-PNW Arms Sales Team

Personal Opinion of myself, Kevin - THIS DOES NOT REFLECT ON PNW ARMS POSITION IN THIS MATTER
The KRISS is definitely a great platform and one that I would employ over an UMP45 in fully automatic. The average LEO Sniper shot is around 75 yards so the context of a CQB weapon means that it will probably be employed at less distance. If I have the possibility of engaging a target at greater than 75 yards I will be doing so with a 5.56 or 300BLK for liability and kinetic energy reasons. /end of my 2 cents...


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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by Solscud007 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:58 am

Thanks Kevin!! Your information has been helpful.

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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by Solscud007 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:29 am

On the flip side of good groups, check out my friend Allen's Carbine groups. 5 shots at 25 yds.


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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by CatMostFeared on Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:36 pm

I agree to this

PNWArms wrote:Personal Opinion of myself, Kevin - THIS DOES NOT REFLECT ON PNW ARMS POSITION IN THIS MATTER
The KRISS is definitely a great platform and one that I would employ over an UMP45 in fully automatic. The average LEO Sniper shot is around 75 yards so the context of a CQB weapon means that it will probably be employed at less distance. If I have the possibility of engaging a target at greater than 75 yards I will be doing so with a 5.56 or 300BLK for liability and kinetic energy reasons. /end of my 2 cents...
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Kriss accuracy issues

Post by alcat on Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:43 pm

Hi folks. I am the Kriss owner with the 5 shot group that rocks. First allow me to tell you that I made the mistake of trusting my Eotech and I sent my Kriss back to Charlie at the factory, ($50. freight) to have them completely check it out as my groups were 8 inches at 45 yards. The good people at Kriss checked my carbine out thoroughly, phoned me and sent it back with a decent target group using their Eotech. First of all, I am not a fan of the Eotech. I find the reticle fuzzy. Also, try to get a factory rep to call you back! HA! It also weighs more than the Aimpoint as I have the 512. I explained to the Kriss main gunsmith that I had encountered a similar problem with my Uzi when I put an aftermarket sight on the top rail cover and couldn't hit the broad side of a fat girl! It didn't take long to see that the Uzi top cover had wiggle from side to side and thus I went back to the stock sights and all is well again. I noticed that my Kriss also had side wiggle when holding the barrel shroud and wiggling the top rail mount. This side movement comes from the two part design and the pin takedown. Charlie told me that it will have that wiggle but by design, that should not affect the accuracy as the barrel seats the same after every round. I was skeptical but not in position to argue with the good folks at Kriss about their baby. He was right. I took my Kriss out and shot another bad group with different ammo. Crap results. It was then that I took off the Eotech and replaced it with a small MOA Aimpoint and got pleasantly surprised. Also note that the Kriss factory only has a 25 yard range to check accuracy and they say that this type of weapon was designed for 25 yard shooting. This story will continue as I am about to set up for an afternoon of testing groupings at 45 yards. I believe my Kriss will fare well as, in theory, it isn't rocket science to multiply the group spread of 25 yards by two to get a 50 yard group. I Will post more soonly. Thanks to all the great Kriss folks out there. Keep on rockin". PS, the first thing to always check when accuracy issues come up is to make sure that the crown of the barrel does not have a ding or burr in it. If it isn't smooth all the way around, that is the last thing your bullet touches and can surely cause accuracy issues.
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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by Solscud007 on Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:49 pm

Thanks Allen, I appreciate you checking this out. My range is very limited as well in terms of shooting. While I understand that this gun was designed to be shot within 25 yds, that is like saying a Honda Civic is only designed to go 65 mph. BS. Push it to it's limits. Why do what they say? As many others have said, a handgun can get pretty good groups at 50 yds..

Anyway I look forward to your results.

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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by Mushinto on Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:43 pm

alcat wrote:Hi folks. ... .

Thank you for your efforts.

ML

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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

Post by dhshammer on Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:54 pm

Thank you alcat.

You confirmed what I was observing on my Krisses. If I can achieve a group like yours at 25 yards, I'll be a happy camper.

When I get mine back from the engravers, I'll try the Aimpoint. What model Aimpoint did you use? What type of Ammo?

Dave

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Re: PNW Arms KRISS Accuracy Test

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