New KRISS CRB FTF

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New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by Mooky56 on Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:19 pm

Hey there. I was looking through the search here, but failed to find much. Bought a new CRB for the wife, and test fired today. I used 3 different types of ammo, in 185 gr, and 230 gr. I had a consistant FTF rate of at least 25%, and fired approximately 130 rounds. The problem was obvious light primer strikes. There is barely a dimple left at all by the pin. The bolt is stamped 45 A1, and there is a G stamped on the firing pin. The "in factory" check list is dated 2/13/12.
Using an allen wrench, I pressed in on the firing pin, to examine the spring pressure. Then, with the upper re-moved, placed my thumb in the approximate position of the pin, and pulled the trigger, to get a feel for the snap of the hammer. It would appear, that the spring pressure in the firing pin, is cancelling out most of the hammer drop, allowing for a light strike.
All parts were pre-lubed accordingly, and there are no wear marks that would indicate any friction or rub points of the hammer into the firing pin bolt recess.
Does anyone know if bolts/pins/springs, have been upgraded?
All FTF ammo was re-fired in my Glock 21 with 0 issue. The Glock pin dimple in the primer is twice as deep as the one left by the Kriss. Although I don't consider this a serious issue, for what this firearm cost, a problem like this shouldn't have left the factory. I'm hoping that it can be rectified quickly and easily.
For what it did shoot, I was pretty happy with. I know the wife will certainly enjoy it. But I don't want to see her get all pissy because of this. It's just not a very good first impression for the money.
We're looking forward to some serious shooting when this gets resolved. Thanks in advance here........

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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by CatMostFeared on Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:55 am

Mooky56 if I were you call KRISS and tell them your problem, more than likely
there going to want you to send it in and I know once you get it back its going to be a smooth shooter. I agree for what you pay for a Vector it should be perfect.

You can check your hammer with the gun apart and it should flip all the way forward


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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by Mooky56 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:14 am

Yes. The hammer has full travel, and spring is what is to be expected. It is the spring on the firing pin, that feels excessive. Enough to cancel out, or absorb, most of the hammer impact, causing the light strike.
Not sure I remember exactly where now, but someone stated a new bolt was sent to them from Kriss, due to a light strike issue. But I don't remember how old the post was.
I was kinda hoping, that some of the readers here, might shed some light on their bolt, and firing pin stampings. Ours is stamped 45 A1, and G, on the pin. Might help to know if differences are found. I won't hear from Kriss until monday, at the soonest anyways.
I tried calling, a couple of times. After being transferred to tech support, enough rings sent the call to a voice mailbox. I left my number. Not forgetting today was friday either.....lol

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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by bslepko on Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:24 pm

Just broke mine down to check for you, bolt is marked 45-A2 and the pin has what looks like a "J" on it.

Picked up about a month ago and it was ordered from the factory so I assume it's a relatively new version.

Brian


Last edited by bslepko on Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:37 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo)

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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by Solscud007 on Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:58 pm

Interesting problems. Thanks for sharing and documenting it.

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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by AZ2000 on Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:44 pm

mooky, I checked mine it is the same as yours, 45A-1, with a G on the firing pin. I have ran about 500 rounds through mine and had one fail to fire, light pin strike. Ammo used has been a wide varity for testing, the round that failed was WWB 230 grain rnd nose. All other rounds were also 230 grn rnd ns, with no problems. I will keep you posted if mine starts to do the same. I am in process of running 1,000 rounds without maint, light oil only, to see what it does and test the reliability factor. My firing pin also feels a bit stout, but sure if there is a problem with the spring tension, etc. Kriss will make it right.

I am curious, were they the 185 or 230 grns that failed to fire, even though it may not make any difference. I am wondering if Kriss recommends the 230 grn because of the total weight and kenetic energy it takes to move the round forward just a bit, as oppossed to the amount of energy to ignite the primer anvil? alien
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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by Mooky56 on Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:32 am

I appreciate all the input here.
185 and 230 gr FTF proportionatly. Not any real difference. I haven't gotten any answer to my email to Kriss yet. I'll try and call them again tomorrow.
Wonder why they changed some of the numbers up? I've had a stomache flu for the past couple of days, so I haven't had a chance to get much else done. I know it's a simple problem, so I'm gonna wait for them to make it right.
As stiff as my buffer spring is, I would be prone to think that the 230 gr recommendation is based on that tension. Kinda like some of the .22 cal conversions that will FTE with a light bullet weight. I have one for my Glock, and it won't cycle a lot of cheap .22 light ammo. Needs to be at least a 40gr bullet for that.
It was a windy day when I shot, so, I couldn't tell a lot about over-all accuracy, but consistancy was what I was looking for anyways. I was pretty happy overall. The way the Kriss handles, it's weight.....nice.

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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by Mooky56 on Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:21 pm

I must say, I'm not having much luck reaching, or getting a response from Kriss. Hope this improves.
Nothing pisses me more than not being able to reach a human on the phone.

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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by Solscud007 on Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:23 pm

Yeah lately that has been the issue with them.

Try extension 105

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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by Mooky56 on Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:28 pm

Got a voice mailbox after na. Left another message. Headbang

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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by Mooky56 on Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:56 pm

OK. I just got off the phone with Daniel. After discussion, he's going to send me a new bolt (upgraded A2 I believe), as long as he gets permission from his boss. They wanted me to send mine to them first, but I explained I didn't want to be without a complete firearm.
If the new bolt doesn't fix it, I'll send them the upper (the only other parts to cause the issue would be the hammer and sear springs).

I'ld like to mention a few more things here, pertinent to this cause.
A number of folks consider me to be kinda a hard ass, because I don't give much slack to companies.
More and more, in our economic times, cutbacks are made. That is, except for most CEO's. It's the workers that get cut.
Our country here, became what it is and rose above all the rest, because of, not only our ingenuity, but our pride in craftsmanship, and making the best products on the market. That's what made this country one of the most wealthiest on the planet. If we do not continue to insist on the best from our manufacturers, then it's just all downhill from here. In another 5 years, you'll consider 2012 a good year by comparison.
(steps off soapbox)

Anyways, I voiced my opinion on existing issues VS cost of product. So, this should have a quick and happy ending.

Thanks for that number! Appreciated

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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by Solscud007 on Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:59 pm

I agree with you. I am more concerned about the lack of customer service. It seems ok when you get a hold of someone. But that is the hard part. They hardly pick up the phone or return emails.

The support for exisiting KRISS owners is laughable. There is no appreciation for us cause we dont have more money to spend on them. I would buy a SDP but it seems it is illegal in NY.

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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by AZ2000 on Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:58 pm

Maybe KRISS needs to talk to the folks at SIG. Have a P-250 for some reason the trigger spring broke geek , called customer service and the fellow said, name, address, model number, serial number to check registered purchaser and stated spring will be in the mail this afternoon, thank you sir. Didn't ask how it broke or what I might have done to possibly cause it. affraid Spring arrived in a couple of days. Hmmmm, maybe SIG will make a model like the KRISS. Could be that KRISS is starting to get large military or LE orders and have forgotten about the single buyers like us, that bassically have kept things going, hope not?
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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by kriss45 on Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:19 pm

Mooky56 wrote:OK. I just got off the phone with Daniel. After discussion, he's going to send me a new bolt (upgraded A2 I believe), as long as he gets permission from his boss. They wanted me to send mine to them first, but I explained I didn't want to be without a complete firearm.
If the new bolt doesn't fix it, I'll send them the upper (the only other parts to cause the issue would be the hammer and sear springs).

I'ld like to mention a few more things here, pertinent to this cause.
A number of folks consider me to be kinda a hard ass, because I don't give much slack to companies.
More and more, in our economic times, cutbacks are made. That is, except for most CEO's. It's the workers that get cut.
Our country here, became what it is and rose above all the rest, because of, not only our ingenuity, but our pride in craftsmanship, and making the best products on the market. That's what made this country one of the most wealthiest on the planet. If we do not continue to insist on the best from our manufacturers, then it's just all downhill from here. In another 5 years, you'll consider 2012 a good year by comparison.
(steps off soapbox)

Anyways, I voiced my opinion on existing issues VS cost of product. So, this should have a quick and happy ending.



Thanks for that number! Appreciated

Hi, I am new to this forum and I just purchased a Kriss Carbine. I have been experiencing light primer strikes as well and noticed this discussion about the upgraded bolts. Mine says "45-A1" on it so I guess I have the older one. Just was wandering though, doesn't A1 and A2 represent steel grades codes?

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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by Mooky56 on Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:32 pm

The newer bolt will be here wednesday. So, with any luck, I should be able to determine the differences, in the A1 and A2. I'll pass the info on.

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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by Solscud007 on Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:36 pm

Can't wait to hear the results. I'm so glad we started this forum. This is the heart of its creation. Sharing problems and possible solutions for other Vector owners!

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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by Mooky56 on Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:11 am

Sorry this has taken me longer. I just got out to shoot today.

So, if you've read all the previous here, I can now give you a complete and thorough update.

Wednesday, I received the new bolt from Kriss, as per Daniel.
Daniel's instructions, were, that if the new bolt did not cure the FTF problem, I was to send him my upper, (along with the bolts) so he could check the hammer spring and FCG, despite my explaining to him the excessive strength of the firing pin spring. (This would give me extra expeneses for shipping, and be without the firearm for at least two weeks, maybe more)

So, when the new bolt arrived, I made several comparisons that I could determine without taking either one apart (due to their warranty). The ONLY noticable difference, was that the new bolt had a stronger ejector spring. The firing pin spring was as strong as the original.
Knowing that the strength of this spring was the cause of the problem, I took the original bolt apart. (I want to point out here, that I was pretty dissappointed. I have never seen a firing pin this strong in any firearm I have ever worked on. It appeared to be equivalent to a 3lb trigger pull).

Once taken apart, the problem was obvious. The pin in the bolt is very similar to an AR, to those who are familiar. It is held in place by a longitudal pin. The spring is necessary, to prevent secondary discharge (multipule rounds firing) when the bolt stops quickly after chambering the next round.
Since the pin is light (and small), it's forward continued motion, when the bolt comes to a stop, (inertia) will still be minimal, and the spring was simply waaayy overboard on power. But that's not all.......
The spring is a standard stainless round wire. It is also of a heavy guage (by comparison to others I have worked with). But more important, the complete design renders this spring completely out of specs for this application, from an engineering standpoint. I'll explain.....

With the spring and pin removed from the bolt, I then dropped the spring back in, and then set the pin down through the center to just sit on top of the extended length of spring without any compression. (the pin has to be pushed in further to install the retaining pin, applying compression on the spring). Here, I noted then, how much travel it took, to push the firing pin in far enough, to reach it's operating position, with the retaining pin in place. Now, note the extra distance for the pin to travel fully forward, as when fired. What it all came down to, is, at full travel, the spring was being almost completely compressed.
So, for you to understand then, what was happening during FTF......
since the spring is inside a cylinder basically, it was being compressed too far. When a spring like this compresses over, roughly 75%, the forces make the spring want to enlarge in diameter. This causes drag, and friction inside the bolt by the spring, "hanging" it up, on the sides of the wall.
This could actually be felt, before the bolt was taken aprt, by slowly pushing forward on the rear of the firing pin using the butt of a small drill bit. Pushing slowly in, over and over, about half the time I could feel a "roughness"/ "drag", when there shouldn't have been none. The spring was too long, and too large diameter for the port it was installed in.
So, since I knew the "new" bolt most likely wouldn't be the correct cure, I simply shortened spring till I reached a point that it would not exceed 75% compression. ( That means I had to remove more than 1/3 of the length. Waayy excessive).
Now, pushing in on the pin, feels like most other similar bolts.......light and smooth. These are parts that will wear. Using even stronger springs on the hammer will only decrease the life span, and increase the wear on the parts.

Today, my wife and I put about 200 rounds through it. It was finally a pleasure to shoot.
I did, put the new bolt in, and fired one 25 round magazine through it. That did give me one FTF for a light strike.
My guess is, that the bolts are made elsewhere, contracted by Kriss. I don't know for sure. But I wasn't satisfied with the direction our conversations were going. Now, with more familiarity, I gained a new opinion of the Kriss........
I like it, for one. It's a pleasure, fun to shoot, but for the price, their warranty sucks big ones. I did some slight checking around, and found that High Point Firearms are advertised as have TWICE the warranty (2 years) as the Kriss, and some other comparable warranties (at comparable prices) are much longer, of course (lifetime).
So, to me, with what I know now, the Kriss should only be about a $800 to $950 gun with their LESS than HighPoint warranty. No, I wouldn't buy another one, but I will enjoy the one I have till it wears out.

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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by mambro on Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:19 am

Very interesting find! I'd like to know if/when you circle back with Daniel (or Charlie) where it ends up. beers
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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by Mooky56 on Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:48 am

What I intend to do, is return the new bolt they sent, along with a diagram and explanation. My opinion, if they were indeed.....gunsmiths, they would have more education and experience than just what they were taught about the Kriss, (in-house certification?). I don't consider myself a gunsmith, but I do have degrees in engineering, and several years experience under my belt, working on, and making improvements to firearms.
I like the gun, but my dissappointment with it, is that I did not get what I paid for. Which would be "Quality Control", and a tried and tested product that runs smooth out of the box. I'm not going to speculate why the problem exists in the first place. They may not even be aware, if the bolts are contracted out, and someone else made the spring decision. Maybe, I got a bolt, that the bore hole for the spring just wasn't drilled deep enough........just a guessing game, but they will be made aware.
I would at least hope, that if they care enough about their product and reputation, they would at least keep an eye on this forum.

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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by Solscud007 on Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:15 am

Thanks for the insights Mooky. Sadly, KRISS USA s not forthcoming with information and help as we would like. It ends up being the owners of KRISS Vectors to solve the problems and be their R&D division. I have had to test things out of the box with my KRISS. Good to know there are otheres out there taking it upon themselves to get things done.

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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by kriss45 on Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:45 pm

I took a look at my bolt out of my gun today after reading your posts and I have to agree the firing pin spring is a tough push and I did notice some grinding when I pushed the firing pin forward.
I decided to dump the bolt in some gun penetrating oil and wipe the excess oil off. I allowed the gun oil to soak into the firing pin spring and now it seems to no longer have the bit of grinding that I had before applying the oil. I will be testing at the range this Tuesday night and hopefully my troubles will be eliminated.
In hindsight, my situation is somewhat different. I didn't have any light strikes with all the different types of ammo I tried. In fact AM 230 gr Fmj never gave me any issues but the Norinco 230 Fmj I recently purchased did. The Norinco stuff seems to be good ammo and the power factor is very close to the AM stuff but for some reason it made a big difference in reliablity in my gun.

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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by Mooky56 on Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:01 am

That "grinding", is the spring reaching full compression. It is the loops, or, windings of the spring, coming in contact with each other, then trying to expand, to "get by", and/or, expanding enough to rub and create friction within the spring housing. It was my light strikes that caused me to discover the problem. Now, sure, ftf's will piss anyone off, but that condition of the spring is unacceptable by any engineering standards. FTF's or not, it is a failure waiting to happen. The Kriss doesn't use a heavy, weighted hammer. Mine is small, short, and lightweight. Very low mass. That could be the part to eventually fail because of the spring. If you bought a new Lexus SUV, and heard a CV joint or wheel bearing grind within the first few miles, you would not be satisfied to know that a mechanic just put more grease on it to quiet it down. The condition is still there. Maybe, only one out of every hundred or two will eventually cause a larger problem. Still not acceptable to respectable quality control.
If I had bought a Hi Point carbine, and experienced this, it wouldn't be no big deal really, easy fix, but in paying $1,400 more, I expect better quality control and engineering.

So, what issues is the Norinco ammo giving you?
I'm gonna guess extraction?

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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by kriss45 on Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:15 pm

The norinco ammo ejects fine, it just won't fire because of light strikes. I am thinking the primers might be a bit harder then the American eagle? I will most likely somehow find a replacement spring since I am not fond of modifying the existing one. Unfortunately because of work, I have not had a chance to test fire the gun yet.

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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by kriss45 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:38 am

I went and did some range testing last weekend and I fired other non norinco stuff (AE and WW) and it all fired and ejected fine. Went back to the Norinco stuff and it still did the same thing. So I am thinking the dirty brass of the Norinco ammo itself won't chamber completely and cause light strikes?

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Light Primer Strikes

Post by starlifter on Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:21 am

I wish I had read about the light primer stike issue before I bought mine. Has about a 30% failure rate, however Winchester White Box seemed to shoot OK. $2000 for an unreliable gun? Unacceptable. Hopefully others will learn from our mistakes and not support this product/company.

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Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

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