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New KRISS CRB FTF

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rpedro
starlifter
mambro
kriss45
AZ2000
Solscud007
bslepko
CatMostFeared
Mooky56
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New KRISS CRB FTF - Page 2 Empty Re: New KRISS CRB FTF

Post by Solscud007 Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:36 pm

Can't wait to hear the results. I'm so glad we started this forum. This is the heart of its creation. Sharing problems and possible solutions for other Vector owners!
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Post by Mooky56 Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:11 am

Sorry this has taken me longer. I just got out to shoot today.

So, if you've read all the previous here, I can now give you a complete and thorough update.

Wednesday, I received the new bolt from Kriss, as per Daniel.
Daniel's instructions, were, that if the new bolt did not cure the FTF problem, I was to send him my upper, (along with the bolts) so he could check the hammer spring and FCG, despite my explaining to him the excessive strength of the firing pin spring. (This would give me extra expeneses for shipping, and be without the firearm for at least two weeks, maybe more)

So, when the new bolt arrived, I made several comparisons that I could determine without taking either one apart (due to their warranty). The ONLY noticable difference, was that the new bolt had a stronger ejector spring. The firing pin spring was as strong as the original.
Knowing that the strength of this spring was the cause of the problem, I took the original bolt apart. (I want to point out here, that I was pretty dissappointed. I have never seen a firing pin this strong in any firearm I have ever worked on. It appeared to be equivalent to a 3lb trigger pull).

Once taken apart, the problem was obvious. The pin in the bolt is very similar to an AR, to those who are familiar. It is held in place by a longitudal pin. The spring is necessary, to prevent secondary discharge (multipule rounds firing) when the bolt stops quickly after chambering the next round.
Since the pin is light (and small), it's forward continued motion, when the bolt comes to a stop, (inertia) will still be minimal, and the spring was simply waaayy overboard on power. But that's not all.......
The spring is a standard stainless round wire. It is also of a heavy guage (by comparison to others I have worked with). But more important, the complete design renders this spring completely out of specs for this application, from an engineering standpoint. I'll explain.....

With the spring and pin removed from the bolt, I then dropped the spring back in, and then set the pin down through the center to just sit on top of the extended length of spring without any compression. (the pin has to be pushed in further to install the retaining pin, applying compression on the spring). Here, I noted then, how much travel it took, to push the firing pin in far enough, to reach it's operating position, with the retaining pin in place. Now, note the extra distance for the pin to travel fully forward, as when fired. What it all came down to, is, at full travel, the spring was being almost completely compressed.
So, for you to understand then, what was happening during FTF......
since the spring is inside a cylinder basically, it was being compressed too far. When a spring like this compresses over, roughly 75%, the forces make the spring want to enlarge in diameter. This causes drag, and friction inside the bolt by the spring, "hanging" it up, on the sides of the wall.
This could actually be felt, before the bolt was taken aprt, by slowly pushing forward on the rear of the firing pin using the butt of a small drill bit. Pushing slowly in, over and over, about half the time I could feel a "roughness"/ "drag", when there shouldn't have been none. The spring was too long, and too large diameter for the port it was installed in.
So, since I knew the "new" bolt most likely wouldn't be the correct cure, I simply shortened spring till I reached a point that it would not exceed 75% compression. ( That means I had to remove more than 1/3 of the length. Waayy excessive).
Now, pushing in on the pin, feels like most other similar bolts.......light and smooth. These are parts that will wear. Using even stronger springs on the hammer will only decrease the life span, and increase the wear on the parts.

Today, my wife and I put about 200 rounds through it. It was finally a pleasure to shoot.
I did, put the new bolt in, and fired one 25 round magazine through it. That did give me one FTF for a light strike.
My guess is, that the bolts are made elsewhere, contracted by Kriss. I don't know for sure. But I wasn't satisfied with the direction our conversations were going. Now, with more familiarity, I gained a new opinion of the Kriss........
I like it, for one. It's a pleasure, fun to shoot, but for the price, their warranty sucks big ones. I did some slight checking around, and found that High Point Firearms are advertised as have TWICE the warranty (2 years) as the Kriss, and some other comparable warranties (at comparable prices) are much longer, of course (lifetime).
So, to me, with what I know now, the Kriss should only be about a $800 to $950 gun with their LESS than HighPoint warranty. No, I wouldn't buy another one, but I will enjoy the one I have till it wears out.

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Post by mambro Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:19 am

Very interesting find! I'd like to know if/when you circle back with Daniel (or Charlie) where it ends up. beers
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Post by Mooky56 Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:48 am

What I intend to do, is return the new bolt they sent, along with a diagram and explanation. My opinion, if they were indeed.....gunsmiths, they would have more education and experience than just what they were taught about the Kriss, (in-house certification?). I don't consider myself a gunsmith, but I do have degrees in engineering, and several years experience under my belt, working on, and making improvements to firearms.
I like the gun, but my dissappointment with it, is that I did not get what I paid for. Which would be "Quality Control", and a tried and tested product that runs smooth out of the box. I'm not going to speculate why the problem exists in the first place. They may not even be aware, if the bolts are contracted out, and someone else made the spring decision. Maybe, I got a bolt, that the bore hole for the spring just wasn't drilled deep enough........just a guessing game, but they will be made aware.
I would at least hope, that if they care enough about their product and reputation, they would at least keep an eye on this forum.

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Post by Solscud007 Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:15 am

Thanks for the insights Mooky. Sadly, KRISS USA s not forthcoming with information and help as we would like. It ends up being the owners of KRISS Vectors to solve the problems and be their R&D division. I have had to test things out of the box with my KRISS. Good to know there are otheres out there taking it upon themselves to get things done.
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Post by kriss45 Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:45 pm

I took a look at my bolt out of my gun today after reading your posts and I have to agree the firing pin spring is a tough push and I did notice some grinding when I pushed the firing pin forward.
I decided to dump the bolt in some gun penetrating oil and wipe the excess oil off. I allowed the gun oil to soak into the firing pin spring and now it seems to no longer have the bit of grinding that I had before applying the oil. I will be testing at the range this Tuesday night and hopefully my troubles will be eliminated.
In hindsight, my situation is somewhat different. I didn't have any light strikes with all the different types of ammo I tried. In fact AM 230 gr Fmj never gave me any issues but the Norinco 230 Fmj I recently purchased did. The Norinco stuff seems to be good ammo and the power factor is very close to the AM stuff but for some reason it made a big difference in reliablity in my gun.

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Post by Mooky56 Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:01 am

That "grinding", is the spring reaching full compression. It is the loops, or, windings of the spring, coming in contact with each other, then trying to expand, to "get by", and/or, expanding enough to rub and create friction within the spring housing. It was my light strikes that caused me to discover the problem. Now, sure, ftf's will piss anyone off, but that condition of the spring is unacceptable by any engineering standards. FTF's or not, it is a failure waiting to happen. The Kriss doesn't use a heavy, weighted hammer. Mine is small, short, and lightweight. Very low mass. That could be the part to eventually fail because of the spring. If you bought a new Lexus SUV, and heard a CV joint or wheel bearing grind within the first few miles, you would not be satisfied to know that a mechanic just put more grease on it to quiet it down. The condition is still there. Maybe, only one out of every hundred or two will eventually cause a larger problem. Still not acceptable to respectable quality control.
If I had bought a Hi Point carbine, and experienced this, it wouldn't be no big deal really, easy fix, but in paying $1,400 more, I expect better quality control and engineering.

So, what issues is the Norinco ammo giving you?
I'm gonna guess extraction?

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Post by kriss45 Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:15 pm

The norinco ammo ejects fine, it just won't fire because of light strikes. I am thinking the primers might be a bit harder then the American eagle? I will most likely somehow find a replacement spring since I am not fond of modifying the existing one. Unfortunately because of work, I have not had a chance to test fire the gun yet.

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Post by kriss45 Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:38 am

I went and did some range testing last weekend and I fired other non norinco stuff (AE and WW) and it all fired and ejected fine. Went back to the Norinco stuff and it still did the same thing. So I am thinking the dirty brass of the Norinco ammo itself won't chamber completely and cause light strikes?

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New KRISS CRB FTF - Page 2 Empty Light Primer Strikes

Post by starlifter Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:21 am

I wish I had read about the light primer stike issue before I bought mine. Has about a 30% failure rate, however Winchester White Box seemed to shoot OK. $2000 for an unreliable gun? Unacceptable. Hopefully others will learn from our mistakes and not support this product/company.

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Post by rpedro Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:00 am

Haven't fired mine yet... Just bought it yesterday... All this negative feedback is starting to worry me just a bit, and I am hoping I did the right thing going with this setup... I am praying mine fires well... Anyone running the Federal 230gr ammo they recommend with any success???
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Post by kriss45 Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:04 am

Update:

I had to send mine back to get it looked at because of the continued light primer strikes. I did get it back last fall after the weak hammer spring was replaced. I haven't had an issue since then. In fact it will eat anything and not even hiccup. I am loving it!

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Post by Solscud007 Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:24 pm

Nice to hear.
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Post by Shaggs Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:00 am

Did the new bolt solve the Issue? I have tried 4 kinds of ammo and I get 1-2 FTF per 10rd Mag as I am in Cali. I have only had 2 trips to the range with it and it has had many FTFs and the bullet button fell off, so I need to re-glue the bullet button. Not confidence inspiring.

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Post by Solscud007 Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:57 am

Have you tried different Glock 21 mags?
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Post by Shaggs Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:44 pm

I have 3 different Glock 21 mags all new at same time as Kriss purchase. Ran different ammo each one. All 230gr ammo new casing no reload brass, no steel. They wouldn't eject and the bolt would already cycle... It's like the action is too fast, maybe em cause the spring is brand new?

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Post by Jedi380 Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:45 pm

One small thing that might help with the recoil spring is to lock the bolt back and leave it for a week or two. That seems to soften them up a bit. Leave the magazines loaded too.

Good Luck with it, my SDP has been running fine.
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New KRISS CRB FTF - Page 2 Empty Light primer strikes after upgraded parts to resolve it.

Post by ga.red.rider Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:57 pm

I bought my SDP in 2012  it had the light primer strike issue as well. Called Kriss and they had me send back  the upper and the bolt. They replaced both with new upgraded parts. The FTF issue went away for awhile then came back. Being the mechanical fella that I am, I firmly believe that the firing pin spring IS absorbing too much of the hammers energy creating the issue. I'm going to try to call Kriss and see if they offer a lighter spring for it. If not I'll get a standard replacement  just in case then shorten the one I have and test it. Except for this issue the gun has been a great shooter and a heck of a lot of fun.

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Post by blizzardscout2 Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:21 pm

I took my CRB to the range today that i received as a trade, 230 gr fmj light primer strikes almost every other round. It is an early model, mid 600 serial number with all original parts. Not happy about this.

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Post by blizzardscout2 Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:22 pm

I contacted KRISS this morning, they will look at it at a rate of $120 an hour plus parts. Lovely. I wonder if any other company would charge me to for this. I am not sure if I even want to send it in or just sell it to someone who will. Would any of you send it in? At this point I am not sure if it is worth the cost.

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