Catastrophic Failure

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Catastrophic Failure

Post by juicy360 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:44 pm




This happened on my 3rd round yesterday at the range. It went BOOM instead of BANG!

It scared the crap out of me and smarted my left hand as the gasses vented out of every area of the chamber on both sides. I was using new factory ammo Armscor 230gr FMJ. [I didn't pay that price btw, CTD has increased the price by $14 a box]

The round went down range and actually hit the target @ 10 yards. Never having experiencing this, at first I thought it was just a very smokey round, then as I felt the pain in my left hand I flipped it over to look at the chamber. The mag had blown out the bottom (the CA bullet button almost blew off as well), I think there was a live round pinned vertically against the chamber wall by the bolt and the brass was laying on top the bolt in the chamber (as it frequently does).

I cleared it all, inspected everything and to my amazement the Kriss didn't look phased by it. Even the glock mag held up. So I'm sure the prudent thing to do would have been to take the gun to someone to inspect before I used it again, but given the fact it looked like it was OK and built like a tank (and pretending it was a SHTF), I put some gloves on and reloaded it. I used a new mag and different ammo. It shot another 100 rounds generally OK. Still got one or two stovepipes (which is a major improvement) and I got one another live round failure to feed and pinned against the wall (that may have been with that same boom mag which I might need to retire as I never had that issue before).

Like I said I've never had one of these in any weapon I've shot. I showed it to the range master and his guess was the ammo had a double charge in it from the factory or just bad brass. That may be, however I'm wondering if the problem is the round wasn't fully seated and therefore the brass not fully supported when it went off? (I'm no expert on ammo, I'm not sure how much it matters if the back of round is supported or not). Looking at the brass there is a pretty clean cross line there were it burst and given how wide and spread apart the case is, that doesn't look like it happened in the barrel. As best as I can tell the bolt does not have to be fully forward to fire. For example if you do the press check to verify the round, holding that position you can sill pull the trigger and it clicks (of course I haven't tried this with a real round).

So the gun seems OK, and obviously it still shoots. What, if any, should I do? Should I contact Armscor or Kriss about it?

FYI - look what happened to this glock 21 with the same issue: http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb2.html

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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by Kipp on Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:48 pm

I would contact both, send the photos
I was thinking hot load also?
Usually a bin# on the ammo box.
Check the mag to make sure it flying out it did not damage it and also the mag lock.
There is a member from Armscor on the forums here

Glad you are OK

btw, I was just reading a book by Massad Ayoob last night in which he showed a bad round out of a factory box, it was crimpled on the rim side of the brass. It can happen

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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by Solscud007 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:28 pm

Wow that looks scary. Another good reason to wear gloves.

Im surprised how that round was ejected looking like that. looks like it exploded out of battery. Otherwise if it was in the barrel, it would have no room to expand like that.

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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by Solscud007 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:04 pm

Was this with a CRB, SDP, or SBR?

Where was your support hand? I assume, given your statment, that you were grabbing the mag well?

Another reason why it is not a good idea to grab there, if you can help it.

Pistols, not much choice. Unless the mag is outside the grip. Anyway glad you are ok.

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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by juicy360 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:15 pm

It was an SDP. Yes grabbing the mag well. It hurt most right in the cup of my hand between my index finger and thumb. That part hugs just below the bolt release so I think some gasses cam out of that area and hit my hand. I had some carbon on it in that spot.

As I said I can't recall if the round fully ejected and was laying free on the bolt or just pinned with the live round, but I do remember the live round was there and the mag had dropped out. The mag was smoking when I picked it up so pressure obviously blew it out.

I'll try contacting both companies. See what they say.

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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by Solscud007 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:22 pm

This is one reason why I video record as much of my shooting as possible. It helps to document everything. My performance, my mistakes, and when ever it happens the occasional failure in the weapon system.

If you dont mind, can you claify what happened?

When you turned the vector to look into the ejection port a live round was pinned. So it somehow rotated and the bolt had closed on it? Was it pointed up or down?

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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by Solscud007 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:43 pm

Oh yeah something else that i remembered. Your earlier post about the weak ejection. Mine had that problem. But I sent mine in last month. I recommend you consider sending it back due to the weak ejection and this problem.

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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by juicy360 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:56 pm

Yeah I might, but that just sucks. How can you run a company were everyone has to send their brand new product back to be fixed.

I've read good things about their gun smith and how well everyones works after they have it, but why can't they figure that out before they ship new product? Not only is it a pain for us the customers, it has to cost them a pretty penny to service all these warrantee issues.

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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by Kipp on Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:13 pm

Was the mark from the firing pin centered/looking like your old brass?

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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by Kiptroloxe on Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:17 pm

Looks to me like a hot load. You say you are getting stove pipes with the SDP???
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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by Solscud007 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:26 pm

Kiptroloxe wrote:Looks to me like a hot load. You say you are getting stove pipes with the SDP???

Stovepipes would be an extraction/ejection problem. The OP has mentioned that already.

This problem is a bigger beast. If it was merely a hot load, the round would go off and increased pressure would occur. But from the description, all the gasses vented throughout the weapon system.

I believe a round was partially chambered. And this is a perfect example of an out of battery firing. The bullet itself w in the chamber but part of it wasn't. Just look at the business end of the brass. It all seems rather ok. But the further back toward the rimmed casing you can see where the path of least resistance was. If that back half of the round was exposed, then it makes sense that the explosion was not contained properly and came out they the side.

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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by juicy360 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:47 pm

Yes. Quick recap of my history with the SDP CA Version 6.5" barrel.

Picked it up NIB on the 1/26/13. Went to the range same day.
It took 40+lbs to charge (pulling the correct way) and would stovepipe almost every clip of 10. I think out of the 15 clips I shot only two or three fully fired without FTE. Last round also would lay on top the bolt in the ejection port almost every clip.

At home, cleaned and lubed it all. When to the range a second time. Charging was now about 30lb pull. Out of the 150-200 rounds I only had about 5 FTE (big improvement). Still getting last round laying the port most of the time.

At home, cleaned an lubed it again (leaving it charged as some other thread suggested). Took it to the range last night and well you read the post above. I think after the failure I only had one stove pipe (FTE) and another failure to feed (which I have never had, so I think it may be a bad mag, the one that was involved in the failure, I had used it again). Still getting weak ejection and brass laying in the port 50% of the time after the last shot.

I love the gun when it works. I literally can shot happy faces with it from the hip (via green laser) it's so accurate and easy to shoot. If it was only dependable it would be an amazing firearm.

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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by Kipp on Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:41 pm

40 lbs to charge pulling it from the hinge side is a failure somewhere. Mine new was with 1 finger and my other hand on the grip. I am a small framed guy also. I cleaned all factory grease off and froglubed it. Let it sit racked for a couple days also. it is super easy now.
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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by juicy360 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:55 pm

I forgot to add its down to about 20lbs now. Seems to be breaking in.

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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by Kipp on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:36 pm

I would like to hear from Kriss on how many pounds the pull should be when NIB. There have been a few people saying it was near impossible to pull, but has become easier. I would say there has to be some tolerance issue. Its the first thing I checked when I got mine and it seemed easy. I cant see yours being like that and mine so easy--on a proper pull, without binding.

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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by Xn0r on Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:16 pm

Damn that's scary. Bet your hand looked like Kipp's forehead!

I think Solscud007 is probably right. Sounds like out of battery. Although, might it be possible for a really hot rd to push itself partially out of the chamber and still burst the brass?

I wonder how far out of battery would it have to be for the hammer to not be able to strike the firing pin?

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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by CatMostFeared on Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:06 am

wow glad your ok.

We need to watch out for new ammo coming out on.
Companys are spitting ammo out fast as they can to keep up
and quality might be out the window.
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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by Kiptroloxe on Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:18 pm

You should measure the oal of every round you purchase and visually check, but the real threat is their uneven powder charges. I pulled bullets from factory .45acp ammo (pmc bronze, federal American eagle) just to check the consistency of powder charges before I started reloading. The pmc powder charges were plus or minus a grain of powder and the American eagle were worse, that’s a lot considering the light powder charges (5 grain). Plus all that was a couple of years ago when demand was low and the factory still couldn’t make consistent .45acp. If the bullet is seated too deep (short oal) and the powder charge is too heavy (++P) recipe for disaster.
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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by Kipp on Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:03 pm

On another forum we were talking about this same thing -- quality control then vs now. At the rate they are being manufactured now who knows. I may go throw some Independance ammo later today. They use the smaller primer (same as a 9mm). It works fine in my pistol. Some even claim better accuracy due to it. Range report soon?

But yea you're right, always do a visual on ammo

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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by GNice4U on Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:33 am

juicy360 wrote:Yes. Quick recap of my history with the SDP CA Version 6.5" barrel.
I love the gun when it works. I literally can shot happy faces with it from the hip (via green laser) it's so accurate and easy to shoot. If it was only dependable it would be an amazing firearm.

You've nailed it. I love my KRISS. The accuracy and fun factor are through the roof, but simply put I don't feel I can count on it when it matters most. It's just not reliable enough to be any more than a range weapon at this point. Sad

At least mine isn't anyway...

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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by afponiky on Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:05 am

Hey Cat,,,

I would put mine on the spot for a HD gun.

Never had any problems but then again my gun was made in 04/11
Never had a problem with it so far.


Then again, it is just one of my HD weapons!



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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by timebandit on Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:59 pm

Really glad that you're okay, man. That is scary... I second what Cat said, companies are pumping shit out right now and QC could be down the drain.

On another note, the only reliability problems I've had with my Kriss so far have been due to crappy Korean knock-off Glock mags and some reloads that didn't play nice. Remington, WWB, Federal 230 grain FMJ and Remington and Federal JHP have all been 100% reliable for me. Sucks to hear that others haven't had this experience, however.
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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by juicy360 on Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:59 pm

Talked with Kriss gunsmith yesterday. He said to send it in for them to look at. Wasn't sure about the failure, but said the numerous FTE could be related to the 10 round mags I'm using vs 13 rounders. Something about the polymer lower does not at times seat the mag right. Since the 10 rounds allow some play in the follower he has seen this happen before. Changing out the lower resolved it in the past.

We'll see. I'll send it later this week. What kind of turn around time have you guys got with Kriss? He claimed he could get it done in a week + shipping time.

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Re: Catastrophic Failure

Post by Solscud007 on Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:04 pm

Mine was sent a while back, but SHOT Show got in the way. Then I spoke with them at SHOT Show so they went and took a look at it again.

I would say more like 2-3 weeks. Just in case. Otherwise you might get too anxious and wonder "what the hell is taking so long" haha

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My Catastrophic Failure

Post by Royal403 on Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:40 pm

Hi Guys

New to Krisstalk specifically for what i am about to post. may even start my own thread with pictures, but this seemed to fit under catastrophic failure for now.

First time to the range today with my Kriss CRB 18" barrel ( i live in Canada ) Bought it as a gift to myself for Krissmas 2012. Was so excited to try her out as it was finally nice out.. and well.. read the following.

2 of my 10 round mags went off no problem, handed the gun to an interested range officer. He shot twice again no problems, then went to fire multiple times. He did a very quick 3-4 taps on the gun as i watched the barrel shroud dent 3 times... my heart stopped. Immediately he stopped firing and we inspected the barrel. completely mushroomed further down and cracked in another spot. Fragments from the lodged bullets had dented bulges into the shroud ( otherwise may have injured somebody without the shroud ).

The ammunition which was used was suggested in the owners manual. Remington 230 gr. and I always have a good look for any physical problems before loading mags. almost wondering if it is an issue with 10 round pinned mags.

Was properly cleaned with included supplies according to manual and prior to use.


Anyways long story short, I am heartbroken but glad nobody was hurt.

I have a few issues. The new KRISS website allows registration only for USA firearms as i cannot select Canada from the countries drop down nor enter my province (Alberta). Have tried to contact them multiple times previously regarding that issue to no avail. today is Sunday so i am hoping to get in touch with KRISS customer service this week. Unsure of the warranty process being in Canada. Any other Canadian Kriss owners with info would be greatly appreciated.


Hope i didn't jack the thread, just wanted to add and document my experience under the proper one.


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