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Failure to Feed second to last round.

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bennypoo
DEVILDG03
ruegway
Keef the Thief
KevinAgar
Crankeye
aragorn1
hydepark308
s2kcrick
sniiped
USCSCJOHN
drowe26
mhemling33
jerryp
SoCal Gunner
gubi
jgianoli1
bluonyx
DUKnCVR
AZ2000
sullivanmedia
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Post by bluonyx Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:55 am

Went to the range today and I knew it was going to jam on the second to last round but it doesn't matter, cause I purchased 500 rds of this particular ammo, So I gotta use it. And just as I thought it jammed every second to last round.

Just to be sure, I purchased a bag of range ammo to test and worked perfectly, all 50 rds "a okay". So now I definitely believe it's the ammo for my CRB.
bluonyx
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Post by jerryp Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:41 am

Just wanted to add an update, although no actual closure yet for me on this issue.

I had begun to suspect the 10 rd mags to be at play here - as that has been a theme of many other people who see this and I'm using new on-list ammo (lawman TMJ 230) and have tried several others with same result so I doubt that it's the ammo.  I decided to swap out the springs for +10% power springs - no better - I could still never get more than 38 rounds through without issue.  To be clear I get 8, 18, 28 or 38 rounds through before a jam - since the jam is always on the 9th round of any given 10 round mag.  I either fire all 10 rounds successfully or get a jam on the 9th (or second to last if I under-load the mag). 

So I decided to try 13 round mags and to my delight I managed to put ~120 rounds through the 13 rounders (60 rounds each through 2 different brand new 13 rounders).  Based on this success I decided to work my other four 10 round mags that normally fail into the mix and to my surprise they ALL worked perfectly now.  Put total 270 rounds through on that day, and then another 250 or so through the next trip.  zero failures from any mags - 10's with regular springs, 10's with wolff springs, or regular 13's.  These are all Glock factory mags by the way.

Now with over 500 continuous jam-free rounds of the lawman TMJ through the CRB without issue I had declared the issue solved (though not sure how).  I noticed a very minor variance in the 10 round and 13 rounds external mag dimensions, thought it is subtle - I was wondering if maybe using the 13 rounders had somehow helped seat or adjust something that was out of tolerance.

I took the gun home and cleaned it and it sat in its case for a couple weeks until I headed back to the range..  

On my next trip - the issue is back Sad.  I had 3 'round 9 jams' over the course of 15 ten round mags (3 jams out of 150 rounds).. so better odds than the original issue but no where near the joy I experienced after two flawless sessions prior.  I did not test the 13 rounders again on this trip since I had brought the last of the lawman ammo with me and was now out.

The only two things that changed between the successful 500+ rounds and the not-so-successful 150 rounds was that 1) when the CRB was flawless I was indoors and when it failed I was outdoors (but at about same temp indoor/outdoors) and 2)  When the CRB was on its flawless 500 I had been shooting the gun dirty and all the trips with failures have been after a cleaning.  I'm currently on frog lube but I had seen the issues on traditional lubes prior to switching over as well.  When I say dirty I mean I had not cleaned it at all from the prior trip or two (150-250 rounds each trip) and had let it sit it its case.

Thoughts have crossed to possible over-lubing, or maybe it's just a coincidence.  I pull out the manual each time and follow the recommendations so I feel like i'm pretty much on track with the lube specs but who knows.

jerryp

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Post by gubi Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:27 pm

Well, I got mine back from Kriss last week, so took about ten weeks.  From the work report they just replaced the springs and polished the feed ramp.  I won't be able to test it for a couple of weeks but will report back with results.  

In the meantime I'm also keeping the mags loaded to try to break in the mag springs a bit, see if that helps per the earlier post.

gubi

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Post by gubi Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:03 am

Okay, ran a hundred rounds through it. The bolt lock back failure issue did not occur again, so that's good. I had one FTF on the second round in the mag, which is better than the previous performance so I guess that's an improvement.

I noticed that all three mags (10 round) I sent them had been opened and resealed. So maybe the springs they replaced weren't in the guns, they were in the mags? This may lend some credence to the issue being related to mag spring strength. I'm leaving the mags stored with rounds in them from now on and will keep testing.

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Post by drowe26 Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:31 am

I've had similar issues, also had a round breech due to feeding issue. I was pretty pissed after that and sent it to Kriss. They fixed everything and I think replaced my slide assembly. I haven't had any feeding issues since, although I haven't been out much (150-200 rds).

I just sent the CRB in again to replace with 5.5" SBR barrel. It took 3 months (13+ weeks) to get it back. :-( The work appears to be good every time, but there is a huge backlog I guess. Just got it back though, so I haven't put any rounds through it with the SB.

One thing I also noticed, I was using white box Winchester 45 ACP. It is EXTREMELY dirty ammo, so needed to be cleaned more often and thoroughly. Finally bought some recommended PNW Arms ammo.
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Post by USCSCJOHN Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:43 pm

I had this EXACT problem!  In fact, my description of the problem -- including astonishment about how the jam always occurred on the 2nd to last round, how that round would jam vertically mangling the bullet, etc -- is identical to yours to the point that I had to re-check your post to make sure I didn't post it in a drunken haze.  I too have a Kal-compliant Kriss.  I too suffered the "9th round jam" on more than half of every magazine through while using LAX ammo.  

Sadly, I kept cycling rounds, cleaning stuff, and oiling stuff until I solved the problem.  Or so I thought until I read this post.  My last "jam session" ended when I finished off the 500 box of LAX ammo and went home and repeated the cleaning/oiling ritual.  I returned to the range (with 100 rounds of Blazer; and 100 rounds of Winchester White Box), and was thrilled I had fixed the problem.  OK so I am not the gunsmith I thought I was but it looks like LAX Ammo -- a solid choice for the $ and for 1911s, the Glock 21, the S&W MP45, and the HK USC -- is a NO GO for the Kriss.

USCSCJOHN

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Post by bluonyx Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:05 pm

Yup LAX Ammo is definitely a no go with the Kriss.

Took it to the range again this last weekend and tried PPU, PMC and LAX (one more time). Only 50 rds of each. LAX and PPU jammed every 9th round. PMC went through all 50 with no problems.

So I'm going to go back next weekend cause I ordered, Federal, Winchester, Aguila and PMC ammo. Just 1 box of each, 50 rds. I'm pretty sure that PMC is good to go, but we'll see. Guess I'll just have to use all my LAX with my Glock.
bluonyx
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Post by bluonyx Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:19 am

Got to test out the different ammo today, Federal's had 3 FTF, Winchester's 4 FTF, PMC 0 FTF, and Aguila 0 FTF.

I'm going to order more Aguila and PMC, 3 boxes of each and see how it goes again.
bluonyx
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Post by sullivanmedia Thu May 15, 2014 11:39 pm

Update.

After switching to frog lube and trying all the ammo they recommended. I did what I should have done in the first place! I called kriss they said send it back. It took them 2 months or less to get it back to me. Now I have only gone threw 50 rounds (just got the gun and went right to the range) but this thing is so much better then it was. They polished the ramp replaced some parts and replaced the mags. It's strange I don't really know the details of what they did but I can as it just feels better. The trigger, recoil and even cycling the gun all feel smother. I hope this all lasts, If it does my my ar is going to be farthing a lot of dust.

So a big thank you to kriss for fixing this gun. I just wish it was like this when I got it new!

sullivanmedia

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Post by sniiped Fri May 16, 2014 5:45 am

it would be nice to know what was done. a tuned vector sounds like a winner

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Post by s2kcrick Fri May 23, 2014 3:45 am

Add me to the list for this issue too. Same exact thing, second to last round using 10 round mags and Winchester whitebox. That stuff is really filthy isn't it??? I will use compatible ammo next time to see if whitebox was the problem. I should probably clean out the mags too as they are filthy.

s2kcrick

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Post by hydepark308 Sat May 24, 2014 8:17 pm

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but the internal geometry of the 10 round mags is very different than any of the others. The compliant 10 rounders rely on a narrowing body that blocks the actual follower from moving past a certain point. It's not like others that have stacked springs or removable blocks. I think this difference also adds friction. When the polymer on glock mags gets fouling on it, it gets kinda sticky. I bought a few around the time they passed the new mag laws here in Colorado. Got rid of them all shortly after and now I just have family from out of state ship me whatever I want. I'm not sure if this is relevant or not though because I never used them in the Kriss. My magex kits had problems at first but after leaving them loaded between a couple range visits they are flawless just like the various 13 rounders I have for my glock 21. Keep us posted on what you guys find out. I feel sorta guilty that mine doesn't have the same problems. I was curious to those of you having these issues, are your crb's or sdp's? Also I have found that steel cased stuff works great for me too but I use it less just because I think it might put more wear and tear on things.
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Post by bluonyx Sat May 24, 2014 9:29 pm

sullivanmedia wrote:Update.

After switching to frog lube and trying all the ammo they recommended. I did what I should have done in the first place! I called kriss they said send it back. It took them 2 months or less to get it back to me. Now I have only gone threw 50 rounds (just got the gun and went right to the range) but this thing is so much better then it was. They polished the ramp replaced some parts and replaced the mags. It's strange I don't really know the details of what they did but I can as it just feels better. The trigger, recoil and even cycling the gun all feel smother. I hope this all lasts, If it does my  my ar is going to be farthing a lot of dust.

So a big thank you to kriss for fixing this gun. I just wish it was like this when I got it new!

Could you take a pic of the polished ramp? Or anyone else for that matter? (SOLSCUD007)

I'd like to see how much of a difference a tuned, polished ramp looks from just my plain jane one. I'm getting close to 800 rds now and it's still a hit and miss on range trips.
bluonyx
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Post by hydepark308 Sat May 24, 2014 11:45 pm

After looking at mine, I realized it wasn't polished at all.  The pics show some glare, but there is no bare metal on the ramp itself, which leads me to believe it has not been polished.  And, I keep my Kriss pretty wet.  It does attract more grime, and takes longer to clean, but that's ok with me.  I either use Ballistol or Frog Lube (NO GREASE), and like I've mentioned elsewhere, mine runs just fine with every type of ammo I've used.  BUT, it's an SDP which is where I'm starting to see where more and more of the difference is.  Lots of guys here with SDP's and SBR's don't seem to have trouble, whereas the longer barrels do.  Not sure if that's accurate or even a factor, just throwing it out there.

Failure to Feed second to last round. - Page 2 Photo_13

Failure to Feed second to last round. - Page 2 Photo_14

Sorry, she's dirty.  What a bad person I am, I know.
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Post by bluonyx Sun May 25, 2014 3:24 pm

Here's a few pics of my CRB, looks like the sides could use some work on mine?

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Failure to Feed second to last round. - Page 2 20140525_102413_zps91e756a6
bluonyx
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Post by sullivanmedia Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:41 am

Talked with a rep from kriss today, at a gun show.

He knew the problem very well. I didn't want to give this up earlier but here it is. It the new single stacked mags from glock. The mags that where returned to me weren't the mags I sent in. They sent me riveted double stacked 10rd mags. Aparently glock changed the mag and didn't tell anyone. This problem took kriss by surprise and it took time to find the problem.

So now we know and so do they.

I can't say it enuf! If you have the problem send it back!

sullivanmedia

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Post by AZ2000 Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:09 am

I feel pretty good, I have one of the early models and the only problem I have had with it has been WWB, and it doesn't self clean it self after I shoot it? cheers
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Failure to Feed second to last round. - Page 2 Empty Riveted double stack mags

Post by aragorn1 Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:36 pm

So where would someone buy the "old" magazines? Still available?   I'm in canada and can't do much with my CRB except cross my fingers. ....GRRRRR. did I spend this much for a problem


Last edited by aragorn1 on Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by bluonyx Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:42 pm

I was coming to conclusion of a mag problem with mine. So I cleaned all 5 of them and installed new wolf springs also and a testing I went. 200 rds of Aguila ammo and not a single problem. Still wanted to try more so I purchased 50 rds of PMC and Remington at the ammo counter and had one FTF from each. Still a problem but much better than before.

Mine definitely likes Aguila ammo, so I'm sticking with that from now on.
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Failure to Feed second to last round. - Page 2 Empty Magazines

Post by aragorn1 Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:43 pm

I'll try that, cleaned up all my mags, stripped cleaned and lubed, will try this week. Thanks
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Failure to Feed second to last round. - Page 2 Empty Second last round

Post by aragorn1 Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:29 pm

Just thinking..... Has anyone tried this.....
My first two visits to range I did not have a speed loader, loaded rounds in mag and had no FTF issues. Come to think of it my problems started after I got a speed loader, the maglula. Has anyone been loading with a loader, had FTF issues, then try loading mag without the loader...... Still have issues?
Just been wondering if the loader is the cause of the problems, the way it stacks the ammo may be different than loading by hand. Haven't had any range time to try this out but...... Anyone else ?
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Post by Crankeye Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:35 pm

No change....tried it today with/with out speed loader. Results are always the same. FTF 2/3 from last round...if you have more than 5 rounds loaded. Anything less...its a crapshoot....but who wants a single shot Kriss?

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Post by aragorn1 Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:10 am

Shit..... Was hoping.
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Post by aragorn1 Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:12 am

With mine I can load up to 3, bang bang bang, any more than that and it's...... "Houston... We have a problem".
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Post by aragorn1 Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:34 pm

Heading to range today !   cleaned mags, oiled mags, "straightened" springs, cleaned gun thoroughly,  try loading magazine with and without loader.......fingers crossed Shocked Shocked Shocked
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