New KRISS owner with two questions

Hi all,
My tax stamp came in today, six months to THE DAY, so, I was able to pick up my KRISS SBR today. My first question may be more of a comment as I am still reading through older postings, but "HOT DAMN" this thing is hard to rack. That said, I am still reading through postings about this and I am not rushing to an opinion or any judgement. I have not fired it yet nor have I cleaned and lubed it. I did disassemble and racked it very easily, so I suspect it is a stiff spring and the firearm needs to be broken in with some rounds down range. I also agree that the closer to the receiver that you grip the charging handle, the easier it is, but still a heck of an effort is required. As I said, no rush to judgements here, as I had similar experiences with my Wilson Combat 1911.
My other question is that I started this process and purchased the rifle in September 2012 when my dealer ordered it and they received it in October 2012. What are the odds that this rifle is current with all of the Kriss revisions/updates? Should I assume everything is current or verify that everything is current? If I should seek individual verification of every update, where do I start and what do I check/look for? Thanks so much, I am looking forward to posting a range report and pics.

Steve

Steve,

I think the easiest way is to send Nick Ferros an email. Or try and call Kriss arms.

+1 ^^^

After you've cleaned it, lock the bolt open and leave it for a few days. That did seem to help mine a bit, although mine functioned okay when I bought it. But yeah, it's stiff!

FYI: I have a Springfield Ultramax V-10 pistol that I bought brand-new. I'm in fairly good shape (even better back then!), and I had to put the muzzle on a table edge and lean in to it to rack that puppy! After about 200 rnds. it got much better, and now it's one of my preferred carry options.

Can't figure out why so many people think the bolt should be much "easier" to rack. Not trying to single "anyone" out here but the spring weight was specifically designed to function properly (not to be easy or hard. It just is what it is to work right). How many of you have had a 1911 fail to go into battery because of a worn recoil spring? The travel of the Kriss bolt is not linear. Once the bolt reaches the end of it's travel the spring has to push the bolts entire weight vertically before traveling forward into battery. This takes a hell of a lot of force.

At SHOT 2013 Kriss showed the next generation. One of the ways they now combat the heavy spring is to put the charging handle on the side of the mag well with its travel vertically, not horizontally. The handle is also a flat blade that folds flat by spring pressure and does not stick out very far as to not bind while operating. It is also completely ambi with a handle on both sides of the receiver.

Just some observations.
MadDog

the kriss charging handle isn't the greatest design, mines always been somewhat ok to charge unless i hold way out on the end then it's really hard to pull it, is what it is.

if its jsut rediculous to charge guys have been sending them back and when it's returned they can charge it. don't think anybody has really said what "magic" kriss is doing but it's better.

Instead of pulling BACK on the charging handle try pushing FORWARD on the whole firearm while holding the charging handle out, concentrating your grip (even 1 finger works) towards the body.

MadDogDan wrote:Can't figure out why so many people think the bolt should be much "easier" to rack. Not trying to single "anyone" out here but the spring weight was specifically designed to function properly (not to be easy or hard. It just is what it is to work right). How many of you have had a 1911 fail to go into battery because of a worn recoil spring? The travel of the Kriss bolt is not linear. Once the bolt reaches the end of it's travel the spring has to push the bolts entire weight vertically before traveling forward into battery. This takes a hell of a lot of force.

At SHOT 2013 Kriss showed the next generation. One of the ways they now combat the heavy spring is to put the charging handle on the side of the mag well with its travel vertically, not horizontally. The handle is also a flat blade that folds flat by spring pressure and does not stick out very far as to not bind while operating. It is also completely ambi with a handle on both sides of the receiver.

I dont share the same optimism with you. Forget the SDP. Take SBR or Carbine for example. Right now, with a stocked KRISS Vector, you can shoulder the weapon and pull the charging handle back into your shoulder.

If the K10 has a stiff buffer spring, like the current run Vectors, the problem will be exacerbated by the vertical charging handle. Just think about the physics and logistics of charging a stiff/hard slider. Even if you shoulder it the direction of the charging handle is vertical. You wont have any solid abutment to push against. Right now as you pull the charging handle back, your body weight and shoulder are pushing the weapon forward a little or at least preventing it from moving back.

With the K10 design, the only thing to keep the weapon steady would be your firing hand. You will have to pull up on the grip while your support hand pushes the charging handle down. The force to hold up the gun against the charging handle would be all arm muscle strength. The only other method I can see would be to rest the bottom of the gun against something like a knee so you have something solid to push against.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that also, how in the heck would I charge the SDP if it is this stiff but I have to pull down on it?! The only thing that kind of makes sense to me would be to hold the gun vertically and draw it like a bow!  

Can't figure out why so many people think the bolt should be much "easier" to rack

because some are normal and some are hard to charge, i played with Kriss when it first came out and that one was easy to charge, mine isn't bad but if i grab very end and "kink" it then it's hard to pull back.

Jedi380 wrote:Yeah, I've been thinking about that also, how in the heck would I charge the SDP if it is this stiff but I have to pull down on it?! The only thing that kind of makes sense to me would be to hold the gun vertically and draw it like a bow!   

LOL

Solscud007 wrote:
If the K10 has a stiff buffer spring, like the current run Vectors, the problem will be exacerbated by the vertical charging handle.  Just think about the physics and logistics of charging a stiff/hard slider. Even if you shoulder it the direction of the charging handle is vertical. You wont have any solid abutment to push against. Right now as you pull the charging handle back, your body weight and shoulder are pushing the weapon forward a little or at least preventing it from moving back.

You're overlooking the fact that the current model is difficult to charge due to the angled bolt to bolt carrier interface. On the K10 the charging handle is on the carrier, eliminating the need to overcome this. It will be much easier to charge as its only the spring force.

If you're skeptical, put your Kriss muzzle up on a counter and push on the charging handle. Then, place the carrier assembly on the same counter and push down.

You just confirmed what I just said. Your example is flawed. You just put the slider assembly against something SOLID in order to push down. Sure that is moderately easier than pulling the charging handle rearward on the Vector. But imagine trying to pull the side of the slider down by holding K10 only by fire control. Not the same thing as having it resting on something solid. Of course we are assuming the spring tension will be similar to current Vectors.

Your muzzle up example would somewhat replicate charging a K10. Granted there are things to take into consideration. The charging handle on the Vector is pushing on.the bolt and not inline with the slider. Also we don't know how the K10 charging handle will work. If it will be reciprocating and directly attached to the slider, like a FN SCAR.

Still without a counter top to push against a vertical charging method is not a natural movement. By shouldering a Vector and pulling the charging handle into your body, it makes it easier because you are the "counter top".

If you want to try, get an AR carry handle. Mount it to the Vector top rail, right above the charging handle. With the vector empty, turn the muzzle up and hold it by the carry handle. Now try pushing the charging handle down.

My example was not intended to illustrate how a firearm is charged, it was to illustrate charging the current Kriss from the bolt head must overcome the mechanical disadvantage of the bolt to carrier interface, but the K10 must only overcome the recoil spring. Try this instead, use the same example I provided above, but use a bathroom scale instead. You'll see the force required is significantly different.

I agree, the angle of the charging handle of the K10 seems awkward, especially with a pistol. That said, if it was that awkward with the stocked version, why do you think they're changing it in the first place? Hint: see above.

I still have my doubts. I don think you lose that much in translation from pushing on the bolt than directly pulling down on the slider assembly. The "difficult to charge" Vector problems is due to stiff recoil springs. Of course there are a few out there with poor QC and the charging handle is binding.

In an ideal world, the Vector and K10 wil be easy to charge like my Vector and all this will be pointless debate haha. I still think charging it into your shoulder is easier as you have something to brace against. No need to use any muscle to hold the weapon still against the charging motion.

As opposed to a vertical motion. It is an unnatural movement and you will use only arm strength to counter act the downward force.

Solscud007 wrote:I still have my doubts. I don think you lose that much in translation from pushing on the bolt than directly pulling down on the slider assembly. The "difficult to charge" Vector problems is due to stiff recoil springs. Of course there are a few out there with poor QC and the charging handle is binding.

We're in complete agreement about the angle of motion in charging the Kriss vs the K10.

I don't want to argue about it, but you're underestimating the mechanical disadvantage of trying to charge the Kriss from the bolt head. That mechanical disadvantage is what makes the Kriss a "delayed blowback" firearm vs a "blowback" firearm. It's also the same reason Kriss is able to adjust the SMG's rate of fire by changing the angle at the bolt and slider interface.

Have you tried the experiment I proposed? On my crappy bathroom scale, it requires more than twice the force to charge the Kriss from the charging handle than it does to merely compress the slider on the spring. My charging handle does not bind and it's the same spring. If you're bored, try it for the heck of it.

The mechanical disadvantage is what makes charging the Kriss difficult, not the spring rate. It's also why the K10 charges from the slider, awkward angle and all.

I'll give it a try. Need a scale though haha